some wild suggestions from an old gamer

[kannbaba]

Starting with Moonbase in Amiga, i think i've nearly played all 4x games (including board game versions like Twilight Imperium and recent hit Eclipse) so catching up with a promising game in development has excited me.

I'm not a RTS 4X type thus SotS and its derivatives did not take my attention. Since MoO, I'm a devout turn-base fun. so my comments are biased. RTS is best when there's no micromanagement and huge galaxy map but sheer tactical fight on a given map.

Endless Space (despite its combat system) is my latest hit 4x game which i played like again again. Its techtree, immersing universe and gameplay, unique races, Hero system, unique resource monopolies, ship designs are what makes me a EP lover. I think there's much to borrow (and improve) from EP for your game I believe.

and here's my bold suggestions:

R&D: I always despised one-item-at-a-time research which is done by the race as a whole esp. after seeing the R&D system in Hearts of Iron game. Unique corporations with their different bonus are involved in R&D projects and it's possible to run 3-4 projects at a time.

so each race can have different corporations, guilds, temples etc to commit for R&D and each race can have different bonus to different tech trees. this corp run R&D can also enable races to employ different factions R&D teams with their unique bonus, like an abducted scientist team to boost a weapon tech for a warlike but science-disabled race, or a rescued/transferred alien R&D team to help to develop alien techs.

Hero system: I'm still deciphering Aurora but the hero development system there is what all 4x games must incorporate. I believe finding out and nurturing heroes (i.e. Heroes of Might & Magic) are what makes a strategy game addictive as you see an ordinary man to grow out into a universe hero.
so I strongly suggest such a mechanism to your game.

Exploration: any 4x strategy game (Civ, Colonization, Alpha cent, etc) comes with a exploration aspect where you simply rush to become to find to find the Fountain of Youth, Space artifacts etc.. thus a game which rewards exploration for me a certain success.

Cultural Influence/religion: especially in Civ4, this aspect turned out to be another mechanism to dominate the map. so rather than being a sole military conquest game, players can also utilize other "soft tactics" to accomplish things that are sometimes too hard by military means.

besides, with the help of different religions, it's possible to add further depth (thus re-playability value) to a race, like warmongering sci-fi race or a hedonist trader culture, etc..

[StaticSins]

Hero system: I'm still deciphering Aurora but the hero development system there is what all 4x games must incorporate. I believe finding out and nurturing heroes (i.e. Heroes of Might & Magic) are what makes a strategy game addictive as you see an ordinary man to grow out into a universe hero.
so I strongly suggest such a mechanism to your game.

There's another thing I was thinking about. If something could be added, like in Distant Worlds, where you have; Spies, Ambassadors, Leaders, Colony Governors, Fleet Commanders, and so forth. That give beneficial improvements and can send them to specific areas to help out, would be nice. Not entirely sure how well it will fit in with the current build as the depth of things isn't spectacular yet.

[Gunther Haldan]

I'm not a RTS 4X type thus SotS and its derivatives did not take my attention. Since MoO, I'm a devout turn-base fun. so my comments are biased. RTS is best when there's no micromanagement and huge galaxy map but sheer tactical fight on a given map.

kannbaba, I think you need to give SoTs another chance. The empire management of the game is turn based. The only part that's real time is the combat. I also like the research tree. Beyond the basic techs, the rest of the tree is random with your ability to advance in each tech area is based on a race defined percent chance to progress in that specific tech so your tech tree changes every time you play the game.

[Gunther Haldan]

I obviously don't know how to use the quote system on this forum. But hey, I just signed up this evening. I'll figure it out.

[jorgen_cab]

I'm an old 4x fan as well and must say that SotSI & II is a game that should appeal to most turn base fans. The combat part is not that hard and you can pause and give orders so that is not much of a problem.

I have logged in about 450 hours on SotSII according to steam since their terrible launch. The game is solid now except for one important thing and that is the AI. Sadly, it is below average and I need average or better to stay interested in a game above learning how it works.

[Lithari]

I'm an old 4x fan as well and must say that SotSI & II is a game that should appeal to most turn base fans. The combat part is not that hard and you can pause and give orders so that is not much of a problem.

I have logged in about 450 hours on SotSII according to steam since their terrible launch. The game is solid now except for one important thing and that is the AI. Sadly, it is below average and I need average or better to stay interested in a game above learning how it works.

I couldn't get into that game, when it comes to AI, might I suggest Homeworld 2, that AI is hard to beat, since it blatantly cheats.

[Zalthun]

Hero system: I'm still deciphering Aurora but the hero development system there is what all 4x games must incorporate. I believe finding out and nurturing heroes (i.e. Heroes of Might & Magic) are what makes a strategy game addictive as you see an ordinary man to grow out into a universe hero.
so I strongly suggest such a mechanism to your game.

Hero System: It's a good idea, but not every gamer likes this, and for some of us it takes getting used to. Going from Warcraft 2 to Warcraft 3 was awesome, but I did often lament that I couldn't just build units to attack, and was required to BABY a hero into higher levels while trying to do other things. Granted, this was RTS-related, but the point stands. If we have heroes, we also need two other things to go with them.

1. The ability to turn them OFF without gimping the AI's victory potential, as we wouldn't want removing them to be like removing a computer player's leg and telling them to run along anyway. I want to be able to kick them to the curb if I don't want to deal with them, and/or if I don't want the AI to have them.

TL;DR: Make an off switch that WORKS.

2. Hero-AI on our side, allowing us to have them WITHOUT micromanaging everything. The 'heroes' in Endless Space were good this way, in that you (for the most part) didn't have to mind their health bar. They functioned as an attachable collection of bonuses that you could affix to a planet or star fleet which you could upgrade as they leveled, selecting options. I liked this better than the heroes in an RTS because you didn't have to directly add THEM to the list of "things I have to look out for", but a happy medium with AI support would be even better.

What if you could have an Explorer Hero, and he would have bonuses that gave his fleet renewable/increased supply or superior movement? What if he had the ability to enhance scanners/the chance for you to find things in planetary surveys that you might otherwise miss?

What if you could have a Warrior Hero, and he would have targeting , damage , maneuvering , or ship repair bonuses, allowing you to do better in tactical conflict?

That's great, but it's largely passive. Add to this some personality (Let me talk to Han Solo or Captain Mal in the way that I can talk to other races, thanks), and give them some sort of activated power (Lucky Shot - Triple the chance of destroying a weapon or group of weapons in next attack, or do stupid damage, or shut down the enemy ship for X rounds. Hunch - Increased chance of finding something very cool in the next dig, or make a tech breakthrough.). While you're at it, if you want to be really cool, make it possible for the heroes to be an AI that can turn against you if they don't like what you're doing, or at least become difficult and force you to fire them when they won't follow orders. You tell the peaceful explorer and his fleet to bombard an unprotected colony? He protests, and if you order it anyway, he doesn't like you for a while. Do it enough and he goes rogue, taking that task force as his own.

TL;DR: Make heroes self-sufficient with some good personality.

Exploration: any 4x strategy game (Civ, Colonization, Alpha cent, etc) comes with a exploration aspect where you simply rush to become to find to find the Fountain of Youth, Space artifacts etc.. thus a game which rewards exploration for me a certain success.

Exploration: This is a core thing we want, but it shouldn't always be a good thing to rush out with little pewpew scouts and check out every star in sight. Or, rather, there should be RISKS in doing that! The problem with going out into the woods to see things is that things can then see YOU, and this brings about dangers of wolves. Endless Space did this pretty well. You could go exploring and find awesome bonuses, a tree of life, a dust lode world, friendly natives on a low-gravity planet...but you could also find pirates you were no match for, who could then come blockade your world and be buttholes to you for several turns. You should be able to make a grab of the wealth of the stars, but it should carry the risk of having you run afoul of pirates, interstellar zoning law, and terrible (previously unforeseen) natural phenomenon. An example of this last one would be...hmm...imagine someone from tribal Africa digging in a back yard in the first world with no knowledge of our modern infrastructure. Suddenly he hits a water main, and all hell breaks loose when he takes a hammer to it in frustration! Space Example - What if you tried to build a starbase in the middle of a high-speed trade corridor without any knowledge it was there? DISASTER!

TL;DR: Exploration should be rewarding, but possibly attract unwanted attention.

Cultural Influence/religion: especially in Civ4, this aspect turned out to be another mechanism to dominate the map. so rather than being a sole military conquest game, players can also utilize other "soft tactics" to accomplish things that are sometimes too hard by military means.
Besides, with the help of different religions, it's possible to add further depth (thus re-playability value) to a race, like warmongering sci-fi race or a hedonist trader culture, etc..

Cultural Influence: This played out well (again, I'm an RTS nut) in Sins of a Solar Empire, where broadcasting lines crept upon planets to turn populations against you. This game, in a way, already has this, however. I've won without ever firing a shot beyond smiting the alien derelict orbiting Pluto. I just spread out and spread out, and spread out, disregarding the whining of the AI who had no teeth when it came to "Stop your reckless expansion or face our wrath!". The way I did it was the money and tech I made by spreading out. Here's how this went down.

"The Vux dislike your imperial nature, and you must cease this rapid colonization at once! Humans are ugly!"
"No I shouldn't, because here's a dollar!"
"The Vux have never thought about it quite that way before! Thank you! We like dollars!"
"Good. I'll be planting three more colonies in the unclaimed systems surrounding your home star."
"We, the Vux, will not stand for this! You are still ugly!"
"Did I mention I have the plans to build this pretty telescope you can use to see all three colonies without leaving the comfort of your home? I'll give you the plans to build it, AND I'll throw in this open border agreement so you can go visit my casino on each of the worlds you can see from your balcony! I'll even pay you to build it, and cover air fare in the pay."
"We, the Vux, love you, ugly human! Please continue to conquer the galaxy and form the United Federation of Monopoly! You are most generous!"
"I'll see that the plans ship right away! Emperor PayPatine out!"

TL;DR: Cultural Influence awesome, but it should be harder with more variables than money.

[Madbiologist]

I agree, and it is sort of in. I seen the AI give me sovereignty of some of their system (especially if they are in my territory). The dialogue, "hope this appeases you."

I never liked city or planet flipping. By that logic Canada should flipped US awhile ago. I like how games from Paradox does it, when someone is so much into your sphere that they pretty much your plaything, they accept vassalage or surrender territories to you. So I think it should work like that, systems are sacrificed, and maybe in the worst case scenario... a complete surrender without a war. Also worlds that are being 'gobbled up with influence' become harder to manage for the other guy. It takes a lot to convince an alien it wants to joint another race. Heck we humans have trouble doing it with ourselves!

To use a B5 Example, Ragesh 3 only accepted Narn dominion at gun point. The Centuari let it happen because they didn't want a war. Though not every flip needs to be as violent at that one, I still think it requires more than just a coloured bubble you impose on the galaxy, that is just the first step.

Also, yeah, the AI should recognise Hegemony tactics and though some might just accept their inevitable destiny, other races (especially isolationists, expansionists, and any race who thinks it is still superior), not let you (and be able to pose a threat as well). Naturally the AI is not fully fleshed out, but hopefully it will get there so that when it declares wars... you sweet a little.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for peaceful routes to victory. It is my preferred play style, but I want it to be challenging, not be the easy road to winning that it is in so many other games. Just like how war mongers and space battle nuts want challenging and interesting combat. I want to earn that diplomatic and economic victory.

[kannbaba]

thnx for all the replies and now giving another chance to SotS.