Horizon Beta - gameplay issues

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GreenKing
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Horizon Beta - gameplay issues

Post by GreenKing »

Hi, I'm Kingsley and I have been playing the Horizon Beta (in classic mode) since last week.

My first impressions are that I really like the feel of the game and that it is very stable. I also think the cut scenes add atmosphere that some other 4x games fail to create. I was able to pick the game up very quickly without much reference to the manual which is always good -although, over the years, I have played most of the 4x games published.

So, with a few tweaks, I think this game has the potential to be one of the all time greats. I am sure over a period of time most of the balancing issues will be rectified by the developers.

Some of the following observations have already been mentioned in other threads, therefore, apologies if you've heard them before.

1)Money builds up much too quickly, enabling you to not bother with industry and just spend to get what you want in one turn. New and conquered planets quickly start making money with trade and entertainment.

2)Fighters are too powerful. Equipping cruisers and motherships with several fighter squadrons will quickly take out all enemy ships without committing your capital ships.

3)The tactical battle screen is a bit unwieldy. It can take a very long time to reach the enemy without using "auto" and if you do use "auto" the fighters will not launch on their own. When you have a lot of fighter squadrons, there isn't any way to know which ship has them deployed and which has not. Also, it would be good if you could just mouse over a ship and give it orders - say to invade if it was over a planet, rather than having to command it on the galaxy map the previous turn.

4)The top left hand indicator of a simultaneous battle in another sector is a bit poorly done. In "Sword of the Stars" each battle is treated separately which would work better.

5)There doesn't seem to be much difference in how accurate the weapons are over distance. You can have fighters frequently miss from point blank range, but hit from maximum range.

6)A lot of the technologies in each category are of similar value. An example of this would be "organic" engines are very close in specification to "antimatter" engines. However, I quite like the way Research is treated in Horizon - allowing many techs to be upgraded at the same time. Perhaps there should be more than a small incremental upgrade on some though.

7)Research seems a bit random. I didn't get the impression that by concentrating on a technology category you would be likely to spawn a new technique - maybe I am wrong? it seems to me that there is a lot of emphasis on discovering ancient civilizations to get tech breakthroughs.

As it stands, the game is far too easy to win. Usually I would easily lose my first play of any new game until I understood all the elements. However, in my first Horizon game (despite early errors) in 220 turns I have 2.79 trillion credits, over 50 motherships and starbases plus missiles protecting all my planets. Basically, I could build 15 more motherships in one turn if any major threat turned up - which it hasn't so far. Being able to cream the opposition eventually becomes boring.

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CellNav
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Re: Horizon Beta - gameplay issues

Post by CellNav »

1)Money builds up much too quickly, enabling you to not bother with industry and just spend to get what you want in one turn. New and conquered planets quickly start making money with trade and entertainment.
I agree that industry becomes useless in mid/late game unless you intend to build ships at that planet with a shipyard. I'm not too sure but I think industry and trade are linked, meaning if you don't have industry then your trade will suffer. We need the functionality to "transfer" industrial units so we can transfer those units to another colony to boost production... example, two colonies in same system where one colony has a shipyard and we can transfer units to that colony to expedite ship production. But, I can't even tell you if transferring is necessary because we are "swimming in credits" by that point anyway so the point might be moot.
5)There doesn't seem to be much difference in how accurate the weapons are over distance. You can have fighters frequently miss from point blank range, but hit from maximum range.
For the most part, range effects the power of the shot. You'll note that higher levels of tech reduce the dissipation of the shot. I hate point blank misses and that's the darn RNG comparing your targeting versus their ECM. It appears that the RNG rolls shots per slot, meaning it's best to have all your weapon slots with 1 weapon rather than having one slot with 6 weapons... at least I have better odds doing that in my games.
6)A lot of the technologies in each category are of similar value. An example of this would be "organic" engines are very close in specification to "antimatter" engines. However, I quite like the way Research is treated in Horizon - allowing many techs to be upgraded at the same time. Perhaps there should be more than a small incremental upgrade on some though.
Others have commenting on engines being rather similar. I would like to suggest that each engine type have a Pro and Con. Perhaps the Graviton could allow fast turning, and maybe Nuclear engines (when damaged) could have a chance to meltdown and become destroyed, or worse explode!! On a funny note, image if Organic engines were "moody" and it might not want to move when we tell it :lol:.
7)Research seems a bit random. I didn't get the impression that by concentrating on a technology category you would be likely to spawn a new technique - maybe I am wrong? it seems to me that there is a lot of emphasis on discovering ancient civilizations to get tech breakthroughs.
I've seen new tech spawn in a category when enough research in that field pops it. For example, all my basic weapons hit level 4 and then it popped a new type of weapon (random weapon).
As it stands, the game is far too easy to win. Usually I would easily lose my first play of any new game until I understood all the elements. However, in my first Horizon game (despite early errors) in 220 turns I have 2.79 trillion credits, over 50 motherships and starbases plus missiles protecting all my planets. Basically, I could build 15 more motherships in one turn if any major threat turned up - which it hasn't so far. Being able to cream the opposition eventually becomes boring.
Well, certain elements of the game are still missing like Pirates and Spies. Perhaps we won't be swimming in credits when pirate raids hit the scene (hopefully). For the most part, I feel that once they lay the foundation where everything is balanced then it's time to throw a wrench into the works!!

I'm bored as well but I'm turning that around by doing some weird stuff. For example, I created a Cloak Raiding taskforce consisting of 4 cruisers with assault shuttles, boarding module and a cloak. I sneak into enemy territory on the sole purpose of capturing a ship. Now, in doing so I came across a game play issue and I'll explain... I had an enemy mothership down to 45 crew members before the combat round was over. Next turn, their ship resupplied back to 400 crew whilst my TF didn't get resupplied ... Here is where I cry foul!!! I feel that supply shouldn't be a 100% chance especially since I considered the sector as being in my control (air superiority wise).
Don't let me wake up and catch you sleeping !!!

GreenKing
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Re: Horizon Beta - gameplay issues

Post by GreenKing »

CellNav wrote: I had an enemy mothership down to 45 crew members before the combat round was over. Next turn, their ship resupplied back to 400 crew whilst my TF didn't get resupplied ... Here is where I cry foul!!! I feel that supply shouldn't be a 100% chance especially since I considered the sector as being in my control (air superiority wise).

Actually, I am not in favour of auto resupply in the early phase of this type of game.

All 4X games will have beginning, middle and end phases. The best games require a large amount of micro management in the beginning phase, which reduces as the game moves into middle and end phases when battles predominate.

I think initially all ships should have a limited range that could be boosted by cargo holds. Transport ships should be manually used to further boost range or rescue ships that have run out of fuel, supplies or personnel. Maybe, after level 4 robotics (say) have been researched, auto resupply could be activated to cut micro management.

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C.C
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Re: Horizon Beta - gameplay issues

Post by C.C »

GreenKing wrote:
CellNav wrote: I had an enemy mothership down to 45 crew members before the combat round was over. Next turn, their ship resupplied back to 400 crew whilst my TF didn't get resupplied ... Here is where I cry foul!!! I feel that supply shouldn't be a 100% chance especially since I considered the sector as being in my control (air superiority wise).

Actually, I am not in favour of auto resupply in the early phase of this type of game.

All 4X games will have beginning, middle and end phases. The best games require a large amount of micro management in the beginning phase, which reduces as the game moves into middle and end phases when battles predominate.

I think initially all ships should have a limited range that could be boosted by cargo holds. Transport ships should be manually used to further boost range or rescue ships that have run out of fuel, supplies or personnel. Maybe, after level 4 robotics (say) have been researched, auto resupply could be activated to cut micro management.
Honestly I'm on my seat for the next update. After reading all the change-logs I'm impressed at how much the developers have actually worked on this game, and I can see most of the "minor tweeking" as easy stuff. So far I think the major challeges will be mostly overhalling the AI, working on fighters, and rewriting some stuff to suit the user base (example why the HELL would I invest in scouts?). I'm sure they'll figure it all out eventually.

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CellNav
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Re: Horizon Beta - gameplay issues

Post by CellNav »

I'm in favor of the current supply system, I just don't like the 100% chance of being resupplied. I can understand the concept of limiting the range that our ships can go but the current supply system does that now, however, it allows the player to go beyond that range at the risk of being "out-of-supply"... The further out the fleet is from a supply point then the longer it takes to get resupplied.

Now, if we want to limit the resupply then yes, having a new tech (call it Logistics) that works like our Comm range could work. This would mean that being outside that range your fleets would never get resupplied. Perhaps at this point they could invoke an "attrition" rule, which means that the longer the fleet is out-of-supply the more damage the ship takes, ie crew dies, components slowly get damage (cannot maintain the ships overall). All of this would be a natural range restriction instead of an absolute rule of "can't go beyond a range of 4" where you have an imaginary line blocking expansion.

To give a quick example ... Our scout ships are never in supply. So, when they are beyond the supply range of 4, they would begin to "die" slowly with perhaps an average life expectancy of 10 turns before they become a floating derelict. I don't want to see a fixed limit but every turn something randomly could break on the ship (including the crew) and god forbid the engines fail! Basically, the player would have to resupply the scout manually by sending a transport out to join the scout.

Speaking of scouts (to what C.C mentioned) ... I think we should replace scouts with Probes. Probes should be our explorers. Probes can't "dig" so we'll have to send a research ship out, this means we need a new Research Module that can be the only type ship (with that mod) that could dig. Scouts should be reserved for a garrison force, meaning they are a local type ship that spawns in a fleet size of say 5. These protect the colony only and return to the colony when the threat is gone. Think of this like a barracks except for ships ... The more advanced the "garrison" the better quality and quantity of the garrison. The garrison behavior is like fighters which, btw, I think fighters should be on Star Bases and colonies anyway as a typical low level garrison force.
Don't let me wake up and catch you sleeping !!!

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C.C
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Re: Horizon Beta - gameplay issues

Post by C.C »

Since we're talking about all this might as well re-iterate my gripes as minor as they may be

Fighters: Agreement as far as "too strong" additionally I'd like to state there is no counter tech. The AI doesn't use fighters either. I actually have a proposal to that believe it or not. Make a bomber class become "fighters", 5 "bombers" to a squad. Bomber hanger is different than fighter hanger. Fighters are 9x (fires individually) and does 1/2 of fighter damage (used for taking out bombers)

Currently "Fighter class" 9x 5= 45 damage +
Proposed "bomber class" replacement 5x5 = 25 damage+
future "fighter class" proposal 2x9= 18 damage split over 9 rolls


Crew: You should be losing more crew during a attack.. often I see a ship only lose one or two officers when they are in the red and all weapons are down.

Proposed change:
Massively increase the amount of crew lost during a attack. This will also help boarding mechanics


Invasion mechanics. Seems like siege warfare even on small planets with small planetary defense structures. I have to make a "bomb ship" (mother ship class all nuclear bombs x9). It shouldn't feel like a drag.

Proposed change: Allow upgrades of the ground troops module. Up the damage of bombs.

Invasion "structure"
As much as I like looking at little things of mechs infantry and whatever shooting... it just doesn't look "pretty". It feels like its a really underdeveloped part of the game that could be better.

Proposed change/what I suggest: A couple things actually. Though a "grind" as far as planetary bombardment is boring, a "planned ground warfare" exercise isn't. Gamers actually like ground warfare to a point. That being said I don't think the developer wants to concentrate too much on it. A good compromise is to allow ground warfare to go on for several rounds.

For example options like these

Establish a beachhead: where a attacker would slowly try to take part of the planet, waiting for more troops to reinforce the initial attack.

All out assault: an attacker will assault the planet with much more force. Sometimes breaking structures

Siege warfare: an attacker will assault the planet slowly but the structures will take tons of damage

could be unlocked via "assault technology"

and things like this could be "defense technology"

counterattack: the defender takes more casualties but the attacker takes more casuties as well

Fighting withdrawal: the defender takes as little damage as possible and tries to give the attacker casualties (but won't get as many casualties) [Minimize casualties order]

Scorched Earth: the defender purposefully destroys the area to deny the attacker from getting facilites that might help him

Anyways make some kind of graph or model showing how the invasion is going and you have a done deal there (and it'll be awesome)


Boarding: As said above, boarding right now really really sucks. You have to make not just ships but fleets that concentrate around boarding and you need 2 capitals for every cruiser at LEAST. You hope you destroy the engines and just pray that you get things right.

Proposed changes: Boarding parties should be stronger, the crew should take more damage (permanent until you go to a space port).


I actually have more but honestly. This game is great so far. Please keep working on it.

Lithari
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Re: Horizon Beta - gameplay issues

Post by Lithari »

Well, I am hoping that the developers at some point implement the capability of choosing the type of colony to put on a planet, because I have had many situations where a planet has gems or gold or, food or research bonuses, but the mining colony, can't be done unless you avoid all over facilities, that includes food, research, trade and tourism.

I had a fully built industry and it was called a mining colony, but I decided to build a single food and a single research facility and it immediately, became a research colony, not I am thinking that the bonuses should be passive, the moment you colonize the planet and have the building type built.

I just find it off-putting, that a huge world, a world big enough to have 100 earths and still have room, but be limited to 9 buildings.......I think they need to change it to size of the planet, not the type of government building.

Overall, I like how the difficulty is right now, if that's too easy, then I guess this current difficulty will be the easy mode and I am fine with that, cause for me, its not the challenge, its the fun I gain from it, not how hard it is to win.

GreenKing
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Re: Horizon Beta - gameplay issues

Post by GreenKing »

I've been thinking about the fighter superiority problem today and would like to suggest a simple way to negate this.

Instead of fighters being all powerful at the start, they should be quite slow and weak. Then there could be a complete research tree dedicated to improving fighters. This would add more techs to discover and provide greater variety.

Just a thought.

Lithari
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Re: Horizon Beta - gameplay issues

Post by Lithari »

I never use fighters to be honest, I prefer the pure beams route.

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FrozenFallout
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Re: Horizon Beta - gameplay issues

Post by FrozenFallout »

Lithari wrote:I never use fighters to be honest, I prefer the pure beams route.

I also find that if I go no cargo with full beam support it works out well enough. I dont like fighter since the computer doesn't use them.
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