Suggestions for Tech Research

Strategy, Guides, FAQ
SugeBearX
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 16

Suggestions for Tech Research

Post by SugeBearX »

Suggestions for Technology Research

Let me begin by saying that I understand that tweaking and changing this system is incredibly tricky as it has dramatic effects on both game balance and AI utilization. Additionally, as I just started, I am clueless about the number and scope of the games full compliment of technological advancements. I also have no clue if this portion of the game is fully implemented and feature activated. I am not going to let any of that stop me from spitballing about some possible changes and improvements to the system, however. I like how tech research works in the game at a fundamental level, but I do have some concerns.

What I Like

• Acquiring new tech research through outside events (survey discoveries, diplomacy) is a much more organic and satisfying method of acquisition than staring at a tech tree until my eyes bleed whilst plotting my civilization’s technological advancement.

• Even authoritarian dictatorships cannot exert full control over the scientific research of its citizens. This is reflected in the fact that some level of research is always active for each technology.

What I Am Concerned About

• I am not convinced the current system provides a satisfying enough level of player involvement…my involvement feels too “macro” at the moment. I feel there is a “sweet spot” between the current system and eye bleeding, snooze inducing, convoluted tech trees. The goal here is to provide more player choice without bogging them down in micromanagement hell.

• There may not be enough differentiation between techs in the same family (nuclear vs. fusion engines for example) to make the player excited about acquiring the new tech. The goal here is to make technological advancement feel like an awesome Christmas morning’s anticipation and when I open the package…Horizon is inside. :D At the moment, I feel the anticipation of Christmas morning while looking at my gift…and I open it to reveal…a pair of socks. I needed socks…they are functional…but damn it, I wanted Horizon!

• The whole system just feels a bit…flat. The goal here is largely the same as above…inject some thrill and excitement into the system.

What I Think Would Help

• Establish a firm system of ceilings and floors in both the macro and micro scientific research allotment section. Ex. Min/Max Propulsion can only be as high/low as X%, Min/Max Fusion Engines can only be as high/low as X%.

o All species should have different limiters, thus creating a template for racial predilections towards certain techs which can be based on the socioeconomic idiosyncrasies of each individual species. (I assume something like this is already in as part of the AI fundamentals, but I added it because you know what they say about people who assume…)

o Obviously a good deal of careful thought about game balance and AI usage would have to be done to implement this…but this is alpha and if attempted the limits should be pushed in an attempt to provide as much player choice as possible without breaking game balance and AI tendencies.

• After setting the limits, give the player the option to manage research allotments in 5% (or whatever feels appropriate) increments, not allowing the player to exceed the ceiling or go below the floor.

o This allows the player more freedom to tweak without requiring an insane amount of micromanagement hell.

• Inflate the numbers…all of them. This is a psychological thing and I am going to advance the notion, despite the fact that everyone will scoff at the idea of doing so much work for little or no mechanical benefit. I don’t want to belabor the point, but look at the difference in the gun and skill damage between Borderlands 1 and 2. (Please don’t mock…I am allowed to love 4x games and shooters at the same time :twisted: ) The level increases in these values were astronomically higher in Borderlands 2, which made me feel like I had gained infinitely more when I looted and equipped a gun of a slightly higher level. Balance wise though this was not actually true, because all of the mitigating factors (Hit points, shields) had increased by the same ratio. I gained nothing mechanically but I was much happier psychologically and had more fun. This also has the added benefit of making the choices before you more clear cut…note I did not say easier.

o Obviously this does not work with % based numbers…so where ambiguity exists, (Fusion vs. Nuclear generators: Is +10% to recharge worth losing 3% of hull size?) the underlying costs and benefits of the choice must be made more clear so the player can feel they have made an informed cost/benefit analysis. If the system cannot be made more transparent than the differences between the techs needs to be made larger.

• Consider implementing resource limited technology if it is not already included. Nothing is more rage inducing (In a good way) than discovering that a phenomenal technology exists…but you cannot advance it unless you have access to certain material resources. Additionally, it gives both the player and the AI a much needed excuse to go to war…many if not most real wars are caused be two factions desiring control over a limited resource and 4x games should be the same way.

• Consider tiered technologies. Perhaps give the player an opportunity to select from two or three tech specific perks at each tier of research. (Say the player receives a perk at breakthrough, 4, 7, 10) The perks do not need to be huge or balance threatening; it is merely a nifty way of feeling rewarded for focusing on the advancement of a specific tech. Alternatively, you could…

• Consider branching technologies. Give the player the opportunity to make a binary choice at certain predetermined tiers. This creates a whole new layer of complexity and gives the player a feeling of maximum involvement…with the cost of drastically harder to tune balance and AI utilization issues. This would likely require cutting down the total number of techs in favor of making them customizable. I actually love this idea, but I can see it being a gigantic pain in the arse to implement. (Like anything I have suggested would not be a gigantic pain in the arse :wink: ) Despite loving the idea, I feel that this strays too far from the dev team’s vision for the system, but I was on a roll…so here it is.

• Consider the addition of more flavor text.

Phew…that’s all for now. Sorry if I sound too strident and declarative in my posts. (People sometimes tell me I come off badly in writing) Everything I post here is in the spirit of helping make this the best 4x game ever, but please let me know if my postings are counterproductive. Even if the ideas are utter bollocks, let me know what you think.

Edited to add Flavor Text
Last edited by SugeBearX on Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Fairin
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 69

Re: Suggestions for Tech Research

Post by Fairin »

least you have punctuation >:)

agree and add on - racial specific bonuses to tech should have their own unique tech's that you could aquire through conquer or alliance. lore friendly.

research techs are highly unpolished (as seen in the severe lack of interesting discriptions) and all engines appear to be the same. dunno how power works since i dont think my ships could actually use it all ect. was giving them a chance before i gave them too much hell for it =)
=(^.-.^)=

" A person can look for their one true love and find them, but could they look like the one true love for the person they find. " - Fairin

SugeBearX
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 16

Re: Suggestions for Tech Research

Post by SugeBearX »

Fairin wrote:least you have punctuation >:)

agree and add on - racial specific bonuses to tech should have their own unique tech's that you could aquire through conquer or alliance. lore friendly.

research techs are highly unpolished (as seen in the severe lack of interesting discriptions) and all engines appear to be the same. dunno how power works since i dont think my ships could actually use it all ect. was giving them a chance before i gave them too much hell for it =)
I'm glad you said something...I am going to edit the post, as I forgot to include more flavor text. :D

User avatar
Gunther Haldan
Voyager
Voyager
Posts: 5

Re: Suggestions for Tech Research

Post by Gunther Haldan »

Talking about branching tech trees, I like the way Sword of the Stars did theirs: http://sots.rorschach.net/images/9/90/S ... chTree.png
Cowards die many times before their deaths, the valiant never taste of death but once. Of all the wonders I have seen, it seems to me most strange that men should fear, see that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come.

Lithari
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 231

Re: Suggestions for Tech Research

Post by Lithari »

When it comes to tech trees, I would like each race to have their own names for it and if funding permits, different animations, I mean, on Babylon 5, a lot of the races had beams, like the Minbari and some others, while there were also some races that used projectile style energy cannons, like the Centari, the Humans and Narn used a mixture of beam and projectile energy weapons.

I would also like there to be an option when creating the game that allows you to set all the races to start on a single world with the exact same technology as me, but to allow this, you need to turn off the missions. Its just something I would like, its not one of those 'do this or the game fails' type of things.

Madbiologist
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 98

Re: Suggestions for Tech Research

Post by Madbiologist »

Some good suggestions.

Preface Message: When I see a tech thread I always get a little afraid someone is asking to have the tech spec tree model be used (think Endless Space, Civilization series, StarDrive, and yes even SotS uses this model as well). Personally I don't like that model because it turns teching up in a 4X into making a 'spec' (hence my unofficial name for that model) in an MMO. The early and mid game forces you to follow a 'build order', while there is flexibility in the late game it becomes a reactive race. Opponent uses X and Y, so you need Z and W, and then grab T to beat him. Some players love it, I find it, it belongs to RPGs. Glad yours focuses on within the current model and design philosophy.

And now for the meat and potatoes. Things I want to agree with or add to are, so basically my added suggestions and feedback for the devs:


Science ceilings and floors:


Tech ceiling effect. I prefer to call it Diminishing Returns, basically as a planet population gets larger and larger the bonuses get smaller and smaller. So a massively overpopulated planet doesn't automatically become a tech powerhouse no matter what. Since the loss of profits on trade goods (I might be calling them wrong, the things your industrial sector produces that makes money, and is based on Industrial Capacity and population) is well worth the massive tech boost you get for maxing both industry and science sectors on your planets.

Perhaps, the tech is based on ratio of work force more than on population in the calculations. I doubt everyone becomes scientists, the larger work force means more support staff or industries that support tech. So the focus of the world will effect tech more than the population under this logic (I might be wrong, but tech can get a little out of control when you have a lot of high pop planets). So if you build an even world, you will get both but if you downgrade the industry after you done building or buy your way up in the research sector, you get the tech powerhouses.

At the moment it is too easy to have both trade goods and science (you only sometimes specialise in one over the other, depending on outside factors of the planets quality only). It be nice if you had to make that choice for each of your 'main worlds'. The option to go jack of all shouldn't go away, but should be a decisive choice.

Very important point: You don't want to put a hard cap though or making the DR effect too harsh though. Otherwise it promotes a 'you must expand always to win' play style, since number of worlds is far better than having well developed worlds. It should be soft and gentle, as to prevent the late game effect of when you have 7+ max populated 10b+ worlds that you tech doesn't spin out of the roof. Larger empires should always be better, but the increase for having a large empire should not be exponential (then it forces the game to be one via only one route... mass expansion), and in my opinion shouldn't even be linear (because that still encourages mass expansion as the only road to winning). Bigger is better, but not by a landslide, smaller empires should be able to compete to an extent. Even a small benefit is enough to tip the scale.

Also having a minimum would be nice, setting up small (but costly) research 'outpost' (they are still colonies in the games lexicon) on some worlds to boost your tech would add to the game, and become a viable tactic for someone that can't land all those juicy big planets. Something similar how your Ind Cap is based on your building, tech improvements, and planet bonuses (with population only effecting the trade good production). Something similar with tech, a fixed bonus that is improved by tech and planet bonuses (from sites), and population applies a bonus to it. This will roll well with what I just talked about before. Also, I like the idea of research colonies being built on unlikely planets and not need huge populations to be viable.

Nutshell version: at the moment tech growth is based too heavily on population numbers, though it shouldn't be too heavily based on number of worlds either. A middle between the two would be nice. Hence the suggestion that tech facilities give a flat bonus with population acting a bonus modifier for it.

Sorry that was this long, I also consider the economical ramification and effect on overall gameplay of all my suggestions. From your post I see you also consider those applications as well (not everyone looks at the big picture). I do like your idea though, just would go for a more soft cap than a hard cap model for the reasons I explained.


Branching tech and tech perk choices, and science allotment:


Branching techs and perk choices, I actually like a lot. Don't know if they can do this without massive engine overhaul, but if they can I would like that. Giving the player more involvement, and feel more rewarded, and I don't think it would violate the initial design philosophy (at least I hope). If not possible, then focus on ways to make the player go gitty with some of the tech. Giving more build options (not just for ship components, but for colony management), might go a long way there.

I agree about the allotment system for the main fields, maybe lets us raise and lower the percentage by 5%, but with a minimum of 10% for each field and a maximum of 50% for one. Basically, when you do an area focus now you get the absolute maximum and minimum effect. Considering I still placing the caps the same way it is now by default... I consider this a minor suggestion (since fiddling with percentage scales will become more micro), but I don't think it will bog down the game. Also, give the player the sense he has more control.

Do leave in the current system, where you can max out one (and get the 50%, 10% in others), or rebalance it all with a single button push. Just give the player the option to go half way as it were. Also, it opens up if they want to support to fields, so they would go 10% in 4 fields, and 30% in two fields.

The halfway suggestion: If you don't want to have increment sliders, then how about having us be able to select two focus, so we can go for the 50/10x5 or the 30/30/10x4 model if we want to focus.

I would leave in the field focus as is, since it pretty much means you go full on to one tech, while still getting a little on every extra tech. It works fine as is on this level, and also I think this is what most people would do, go maximum on one tech at the expense of the others. As if they were choosing a tech, the current way lets you do this and still keep the whole field still improves a bit.


Diversity in tech:


I was going to put this in my own suggestion thread (and I will, so I will do a short version here). I think there should be more diversity between engines (that will be by adding what I will suggest next). Sure some are outright better than others, but there seems to be a trade-off game being played. By adding more diversity it will help with distinguishing between engines (both as overall quality and as trade-off).

One way to do this, maybe having a turn efficiency for engines. This will now allow some engines to have better top speeds as well. So you have a trade-off between maximum movement distance, and how easily you can maneuver. Example AM engines might be the fastest, but Graviton Engines give a good turn rate, with fusions sitting in the middle.

Another place is weapons, but not for the same reasons (weapons are diverse by default except for...). The problem I see is the distinguishing feature comes in at level 5. At the moment, level 1-4 only plays with damage output making the diversity much smaller between them. Not sure if this will grossly unbalance the game, but if it doesn't, maybe having the distinguishing feature come in at level 3 (bumping 3 and 4 up by one). This way each weapons become truly unique early on. This also means these different techs will have a larger impact in the early game, but that may not be a bad thing.


Ending remarks:


This is to the OP, I think I heard them say the flavour text will be coming, since this is still an alpha (and not even a beta). To the developers, when you do due the flavour text, don't skimp out on it. It really does add to the atmosphere of the game, and considering how atmospheric Horizon is, this is not were you want to skimp out on.

Interesting game, interesting tech model, and as for the OP, thanks for the stimulating post and suggestions... it got me thinking as well. :D

SugeBearX
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 16

Re: Suggestions for Tech Research

Post by SugeBearX »

Madbiologist wrote: Interesting game, interesting tech model, and as for the OP, thanks for the stimulating post and suggestions... it got me thinking as well. :D
Glad my spitballing elicited some thought and dialogue. I really love the feel and direction of this game and I hope I have something to contribute that may help the devs make the game even better. With thoughtful posts like yours the community is off to a good start. :)

SugeBearX
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 16

Re: Suggestions for Tech Research

Post by SugeBearX »

Shameless bump to try and catch a Dev's eye for a response. :wink:

User avatar
Zaimat
Dev. Team
Dev. Team
Posts: 1427
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Suggestions for Tech Research

Post by Zaimat »

Some great suggestions! Although I read it more than once, there is a lot to consider in this thread so I'll come back when touching research (won't be for a little while, more pressing things we need to finish first).

But here is what we are currently leaning toward: Set an additional focus for new discoveries in each tech field. Instead of new techs being completely random picks you would be able to set focus on a category (eg: ground combat) and increase the likelihood for ground combat related techs or alternatively we give a list of techs and you set focus on the specific tech for discovery chance.

When race customization is ready, you will also be able to set the racial disposition with regards to starting techs or categories.

{Edit} The philosophy behind racial tech types (weapons, engines, armor and so on) is to have different types and for all to be effective if specialized in even though some could be more powerful at the cost of requiring extra power or having some weakness and so on. I never liked much in MOO/MOO2 discarding weapons in favor of the latest and greatest so I don't want to go down that path.
Horizon - Lead Designer | a.k.a. Raf

SugeBearX
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 16

Re: Suggestions for Tech Research

Post by SugeBearX »

Thanks for the reply Zaimat...sounds great. :) I can't wait to see what you do with this...I already love the direction you took with the techs and I believe you all will make them something special. You folks are doing a superb job with this game, keep up the great work.

PS: Even in Alpha, I decided to recommend Horizon to my friends. :D

Xenotron
Vanguard
Vanguard
Posts: 20

Re: Suggestions for Tech Research

Post by Xenotron »

Is it worth to add some random breakthrough in absolutely different area of research than current one? For example, researchers could develop some beam weapon that is absolutely crappy to be considered a ship beam weapon, but could be perfectly used by soldiers in ground combat. Or in industry...
It's more like in reality - you try to develop a new type of material for spaceships, but get a material for frying pan instead (I mean Teflon)...

DimitriFilichkin
Voyager
Voyager
Posts: 5

Re: Suggestions for Tech Research

Post by DimitriFilichkin »

I love the organic feel of discovering new techs, and I think you could push it a bit further. Maybe have some tech fields require a research base in a certain situation, or add an "expedition" mission for ships to perform research in deep space, such as unlocking Gravaton engines by sending a research vessel to take scan readings in a system with a black hole, or Neutrino guns by researching in a system with a Quasar, or getting a boost to biotoxin and anti-toxin from either colonizing a toxic planet, or having a ship perform an expedition on one. Essentially the expedition would be the same thing as a dig order, only you have to figure out what would help yourself instead of finding it with a survey.

Also, as noted above, research seems a bit too linked to population, maybe make research upgrades more limited, but add more variety for them, like orbital research stations, deep space probes, or labs set up on un-colonized and inhospitable worlds you don't want to fully colonize, with each one giving a bonus to research in a certain kind of tech. You could build a small research outpost on a toxic world without terraforming, for example, since it would just be a small camp with research staff, and they would crank out extra bio-tech research, or organic tech like the organic power generator. As a flip side, they would be vulnerable to attack, and an enemy fleet could capture them and steal the research (maybe the last few turns of research done on that world would be applied to them, if they had a lower research value in those feilds, and would unlock one random tech if you found one with that research station).